Trade Marion?
OK, it's all over the internet (like every summer) and it's all over our comments too.
Should the Suns trade Shawn Marion?
A few posts down, Zei breaks down the team's financial situation. They need to figure out a solution for the potential luxury tax bill by the trade deadline next season. The upcoming draft is loaded with talent, the Suns have three picks and an All Star utility man with a huge contract.
Is the answer to trade Shawn Marion?
In many ways, his play defines the Suns' success... and their shortcomings. However, there's a certain Frenchman who's gotten a little fat and happy... and more tentative.
Personally, I go back and forth on it. However Marion in Chicago and Nocioni and Gordon in Phoenix sounds pretty good. Fact is the Spurs are about to have another parade down the road from me. Shedding salary without getting better is counterprodcutive. This team's title window is now. I want a good reason to come back to PHX next summer.
What's the best move?
UPDATE: Joe Dumars alludes to PHX asking for two starters and both their first round draft picks for Marion. That sounds totally ridiculous. Dumars may be exaggerating but he says the deal is there if he wants it. Perhaps the Suns have set the price very high to lure a nice deal or to chase away legit contenders. Check the link and you can listen to the interview with Dumars, who is one of the best in the business.
Labels: luxury tax, Phoenix Suns, Shawn Marion, Trades
posted by Hersey @ 11:10 PM
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36 Comments:
[from last blog]
There *could* be a lot of versatility to gain from a Bulls trade, but only if Mike D'Antoni cooperates. If Andres Nocioni replaced Marion, he would probably start, but D'Antoni might keep up his eight-man-rotation nonsense and ignore Duhon and the rookies, thereby running Nash into the ground *again* and defeating the purpose of Duhon. Shawn Marion should leave only because his contract is too expensive, but maybe D'Antoni should leave because he's a bad coach. Forget Ben Gordon in Phoenix; you said yourself that he'll demand too much money later. It would just bring back this whole problem in a year or two. The team can't pay any more stars.
I wouldn't like to see Raja lose minutes, because he's worked out perfectly since he joined the Suns, doing everything they ask of him and not demanding a huge contract (though he's well-paid). Who doesn't like Raja, other than opposing players?
Yeah, the Suns have three picks in this draft, but come on, they're too low to guarantee players of any value. I believe in draft miracles, since the late second round once brought the Suns a steal named Jeff Hornacek, but if that happens this month, we're back to the problem of Mike D'Antoni--he'll ignore a second-round rookie, perhaps fairly.
You're probably right about Gordon, but I like to dream a little. In two years, KT40's contract comes off the books and hopefully the team will have drafted his protege/replacement this year. The team would be able to pay BG in the same range as Diaw or a little less than Nash and keep him in what would hopefully be a championship situation. He's a notch below guys like Gilbert and Michael Redd so he won't get max money.
The team can't trade Marion and not get a star in return. That's just like the Barkley trade, only justified by the luxury tax. He doesn't have to be an all star but a star capable of making big plays.
I love Raja too but he's 31 and plays superhard. He played nearly 38 minutes a game this year. Ginobili (who is 30) played 28. Here's my point, in the last 3 years two teams have totally confused me. Memphis (before this season) was a playoff team that had 10 quality players who all saw time and played the slowest deliberate style they could. Phoenix played the fastest and yet played the fewest players.
During the season, the Spurs played 2 guys over 30 minutes a game. Duncan, a 2X MVP, played 34 minutes a game. They won 58 games with the best point differential in the league. The Suns won 61 games playing 6 guys over 30 minutes a game. In the playoffs only 5 guys played 30+, with Marion playing over 40 and Bell right at 40 minutes. During the Spurs run, 4 guys are playing 30+ with Parker topping out at 37.
When the Spurs win the title, they'll be the second team in a row to have coasted during the regular season only to see it turn into a title when their vets turned it on. The season is too long. The teams that win it all commit to their style but don't lay it on the line in the regular season for homecourt advantage. The best teams can win anywhere and often do when it mattters.
We are in total agreement that it comes down to Coach D'Antoni. Any roster move or draft pick can be genius if the coach can motivate and get the most from the role players. Nobody does this better than Popovich. I'll never forget Coach D saying the Suns had more talent but the Spurs were better collectively. Uh Mike- THAT'S COACHING!
I never considered the Suns front office or coaching staff to behave strangely until Mike D'Antoni became coach.
We saw Jim Jackson fill in decently for injured Joe Johnson in the '05 playoffs, but in the following season, Jackson was ignored for no apparent reason for a long time, then simply let go. I remember that when he left, he briefly said that there'd been a "communication" problem. That doesn't suggest he had any bad attitude; it just suggests *someone* in the management didn't do their job.
This same thing happened to Jumaine Jones last season, only more strangely. Not only was Jones benched while Banks, Burke and Piatkowski got occasional little playing time, he stopped even appearing in the box scores. Unless Jones was hurt or had a bad attitude, this was ridiculous. I've read the skinny on him, and he's capable.
What's more, while more and more of us fans are noticing that D'Antoni ignores his bench, seemingly no one on his staff or in the front office challenges him on it. I don't assume D'Antoni is just dictatorial about it, because he *can't* be a dictator here--he's in charge only if Sarver supports his decisions.
I don't think those bench players are worthless, either. If Pat Burke were incompetent, why has he stuck around? Marcus Banks didn't get a reputation as a defensive specialist for nothing. Eric Piatkowski is a sharpshooter. Jumaine Jones is supposedly a decent forward who can shoot.
There's just a problem here. The Suns coach whom I particularly remember using his bench very well was Paul Westphal. Barkley, KJ and Dan Majerle were the stars, but somehow, I'd hear every name on the roster mentioned before or after the game. Even worthless Jerrod Mustaf--Westphal once tried starting him when Barkley injured his knee. That doesn't happen now.
The Suns would be foolish to turn down Gordon, Nocioni and Duhon for Marion. I don't know if the Bulls would even offer this trade, but I think it bring a championship to the Suns next year. Even if the Suns can't afford to keep Gordon after this year, isn't it worth it for a championship? Once Gordon leaves Barbosa would start along side Nash and they would still have Bell and future draft picks for depth.
This trade provides the Suns with a very nice player in Nocioni, probably at around 8 mil a year, which is half of what they were paying Marion. And in Gordon & Duhon they have 2 nice pieces of a championship puzzle for a year and then they would be off the books, which helps the luxury tax situation. I say do it.
I like that Bulls trade...but what about Shawn for Sheed? Rasheed Wallace is the post defense and rebounding we need, and stretches the floor, which is good for everybody. The only thing might be his attitude, but D'Antoni was an assistant with him in Portland a while back.
Would it happen? Shawn Marion and Tayshaun Prince are almost the same thing. hmmm. That's a hangup. I don't know if Detroit would be willing to move Tayshaun, or would just play Marion at the 4 and make them more athletic.
Rasheed Wallace is 33 years old; Marion is 29. Trading a younger player for an older one sounds undesirable.
Oh, and then there *is* his being an unmitigated jerk. Forget that he harasses referees and makes boneheaded public remarks like "With Artest gone, I'm [Stern's] next target." He also abuses teammates if things aren't going his way or if he feels like it. There's the recent time he went after Rip Hamilton for some mistake; but worse is the time, back in Portland, when Wallace laughed when Bonzi Wells deliberately threw a ball into a teammate and sent him sprawling. I merely read that, but it's stuck with me ever since.
Wallace's rotten personality makes him a high-risk acquisition. Andres Nocioni, being 28 and known for dirty play only with opposing players, is safer.
Can I find anything to say in Wallace's favor? Yes, one thing: getting him would be better than trading Marion for some garbage from the Celtics.
Sorry to be posting so many times, ut jawing over trade scenarios is arguably more fun than watching the games.
I don't like that Sheed deal at all. This one won't die but I just don't see it even working for either team. Why not just trade Marion for Artest or Zach Randolph? Rebounding and toughness are a need but don't bring in a merc who might ruin the chemistry.
Josh the teammate Sheed hit with a ball was Ruben Boumtje Boumtje. His back was turned and he drilled him in the head. That was Jailblazer Sheed though. He has a ring now, which means he's like matured and stuff. ;-)
All right, maybe he has. But Shawn Marion for Ron Artest? You have got to be kidding, saying that strictly to tweak everyone. Ron Artest is a lunatic! If he doesn't attack people, he quits on his teams whever he gets bored with them--one or the other, it happens every time. He would have, if nhot his teammates, then management and all the fans on edge wondering when he's going to pull a stupid stunt and get himself shipped out of town.
I'm totally joking. I like the vibe the current roster has. I like players who are somewhat easy to like and good guys in the community. Marion is good guy who has tried to be the face of the franchise. If he gets traded I hope it's not for a jerk who forgets its a privilege to get paid to play basketball. The current team has never quit or acted like lunatics and that's a reasonable standard to hold the Suns to.
Argh! The East Valley Tribune claims the Suns want to dump Kurt Thomas, which is the opposite of what they should do. It's been said before, possibly on this blog--Thomas was the only Sun who could guard Tim Duncan straight up. Mike D'Antoni doesn't have a clue! Neither does Paola Boivin at the Republic, who says keep Marion because trading him would disrupt team chemistry. Excuse me? The chemistry is mediocre--Marion and Stoudemire apparently don't like each other.
That was really the only point I was trying to make: Sheed is a good player (with a bad attitude), and his game would fit well (athletic, tall, shoots the 3). He is much better, in my mind, than Nocioni or garbage from the fucking Celtics. If we do ANYTHING with the Celtics, it better be getting us their #5 pick for some Corey Brewer or something.
Or Al Horford. He's big enough to play center.
Dumars implys in the interview I link to that PHX is asking for too much for Marion. He does say that nobody is untouchable on his team but there is no way the Suns do that deal straight up. They are going to make the price steep for a contender.
I get the stuff about letting KT go but moving him has to be for a younger or unproven player. Without him I don't see how they'll improve defensively but they still didn't beat the Spurs with Kurt.
Reading what D'Antoni is saying about trying to keep it together is good if the team actually works on their weaknesses and he actually uses the bench. Dallas didn't reload last year from 04-05 to 05-06 and they made the Finals with basically the same roster and a more focused commitment to Avery's style.
Here's my issue with NOT trading Marion. Let's say everyone comes back and they don't win next year. Marion can opt out and leave and the Suns only get the cap space back but wasted another year of Nash's career and made few moves to get better. Will Marion come through with a killer year to get the Suns over the top or will he be pouty over the trade rumors and then leave?
I love Shawn Marion. I absolutely respect his hustle, and enjoy his athleticism. But I understand if we have to trade him, but only for the right people at the right price. Nocioni wouldn't sound bad or impossible and another first round pick would not hurt, but there is no way in hell in my opinion that Ben Gordon is comming here. And the whole rumor on us getting Rasheed the Weed! Look I understand he's tough, gritty, and a great defensive player and inside presence, but only when he's not suspended. Look where suspensions (valid or not) got us.
Er...wow. How about the Grant Hill prospect, which is not a rumor? I know he never became the player he was expected to be, but he's still a good player, and he says he's interested in joining the Suns. The Republic credibly suggested he might take a minimum contract, and even if he wouldn't, a nearly-35-year-old whose career was ruined by injuries and who isn't known for being egotistical is unlikely to make huge demands. If Shawn Marion left and Hill came here, we would basically get a free replacement for Marion for one or two seasons.
As a note, Kurt Thomas' deal expires this year, so he'd be $8. Mil coming off the books. Kind of looks like they are trying to move him though, and chances are that if KT is moved, Marion might be moved with him so we can trim as much possible cap in the trade.
If the Suns have a Duhon, Gordon and Nocioni trade on the table and won't take it, I'm going to shoot Steve Kerr in the eye. I've got a little food for thought here. To give a little insight into the type of production we'd be getting back for Marion in the trade, here is everyone's production per 40 minutes. (About what Shawn gets in the first place.)
Andres Nocioni: 21.3 points, 8.6 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 0.7 blocks per 40 minutes. (45.5 FG%, 41.2 3PT%, 86.4 FT%, 57.2 TS%)
Ben Gordon: 25.9 points, 3.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.3 blocks per 40 minutes. (46.7 FG%, 38.3 3PT%, 84.8 FT%, 57.8 TS%)
Chris Duhon: 11.7 points, 3.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.1 blocks per 40 minutes. (40.8 FG%, 35.9 3PT%, 75.2 FT%, 52.9 TS%)
---
Shawn Marion: 18.6 points, 10.4 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.6 blocks per 40 minutes. (52.4 FG%, 31.7 3PT%, 81.0 FT%, 59.4 TS%)
Also, I'd like it to be noted that Chicago's offensive set doesn't end up in a whole lot of open shots, due to the lack of a dominant playmaker or scorer, so all three players would have a much easier time scoring and are already well conditioned for a fast paced style of play.
So, as you can see... chances are that the Bulls won't take that trade. If we are given the oppurtunity to get it though, the Suns should take it. Three players who can shoot, play defense (Chris Duhon is one of the best real perimeter defenders in the league, especially at the point guard position), and have a real sense of toughness. If the Bulls have that offer on the table and the front office doesn't like it, I don't know what to do with our front office.
I'm obviously behind the Chicago deal and much like the Suns, the Bulls have to do something to get better. It is public that Duhon is on the trading block, Nocioni is a RFA and Gordon has been in trade talks for two seasons.
Grant Hill would be nice. He can create his own shot but his jumper is gone and he won't play a full season.
I'm with you, Zei and Hersey. Marion for Nocioni and anyone else--I'm flexible on who, because Ben Gordon will demand too much money and can't be kept anyway.
But come on...for the very limited money he is likely to want, Grant Hill would be a bargain. A finesse player like him and a dirty defender like Nocioni would, between them, make our SF position multidimensional.
Oh, and in all fairness, if he's telling the truth (and is he any liar?), Joe Dumars is right--the Suns' demands are quite unreasonable. Detroit's five starters, if I recall, are Billups, Hamilton, Webber, Prince and Wallace. Marion for two of those all-stars or near-all-stars *and* two draft picks?--that's ridiculous, and the Suns were obnoxious to even suggest it, if they did. Charles Barkley, a greater player than Marion, got traded away for garbage and spare parts.
I listened to the interview and I think Dumars is talking shit personally. If that chat even happened, I think it was Kerr's way of saying- we're not giving you Shawn Marion.
So he is a liar after all? Okay. But [rhetorically] *please* don't tell us the Suns overvalue Marion. He can't create his own shot, and his being moved to power forward all the time suggests that small forward puts him at a disadvantage. His advantages outweigh those disadvantages, but there are other problems. besides his being overpaid, he hogs the minutes as his position, which discourages roster. And he doesn't get along with Amare Stoudemire. I saw him very awkwardly deferring to STAT on a rebound during the Lakers series. And than there's the fact that he can't permanently stop complaining about not being important enough.
I made some odd typos there...I meant to say he hogs the minutes at his position, which discourages roster depth.
What's the deal with Kobe? He's on the trade talk again. If he leaves LA and guys like Garnett and JO leave their teams the NBA could look totally different next year. The Suns better make an aggressive move. The Spurs are gonna get a free agent who will take less money to get a ring.
So? The Spurs can't get any better than they are.
Kobe Bryant is just making himself look ridiculous; answer to your question: he's a yo-yo. He certainly won't be traded here, because even if the Suns had the money and the stupidity to trade for him, the Lakers know better than to trade their star player to team in their conference and their division *and* with whom they have had a nastier rivalry than usual recently. I think the Lakers are despised; even before O'Neal left them, Dan Bickley wrote in a column that the "evil empire" was crumbling.
I agree the Spurs will reload in some fashion. They tend to find solid vets who'll take less money to win. I have a feeling a guy like Gerald Wallace would be perfect on that team and gradually take over for Bowen.
I think Shaq's Lakers were an arrogant bunch. I don't agree that these Lakers are despised, I think they led the league in road attendance. Kobe may have haters but people will pay to see him play. The guy is a basketball clockwork orange.
Yeah... It makes me feel sometimes as though professional basketball (and possibly other sports) is inherently Nietzschean. It rewards players (i.e., Kobe Bryant, and to a lesser extent, Michael Jordan) who are arrogant, ruthless, egotistical and who expect their teammates to kiss their asses, or players who are thuggish (i.e, the 1980s Pistons, and several current Spurs players) and it punishes players and/or teams who stress character (i.e., the Phoenix Suns, and maybe the Dallas Mavericks).
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ARGH! The Suns' front office talked to the Wolves about trading Amare Stoudemire for Kevin Garnett (--Hoopshype), on top of balking at trading Shawn Marion despite its being obviously appropriate? What in hell is wrong with them? My mood is shifting from merely jaded, to disgusted. The Steve Nash run-and-gun era itself is on shaky ground.
By the way, Joshua = Josh = me. I usually type "Josh" manually, but forgot to.
Gua-ran-teed Con-tracts.
Lots of rumors swirling but nothing to get interested in until draft night. The Suns need to use those picks wisely, whether they have a larger trade planned or not. They've sold picks that have become good players. Pick for yourself and the pick has more value. After the draft we can see who the Suns sign after June 1st.
The Suns talked to the T'Wolves but I think they're shopping Garnett to gauge value. A straight up deal wouldn't work and a deal that could work would put the Suns further into the luxury tax.
According to some sources, the Suns are #3 on Kobe's wish list because they wouldn't have to gut the team to get him. Ian Thomsen at SI is saying Kobe for STAT which is wrong in so many ways. You NEVER trade big for small (unless you are Toronto and you get TJ Ford for Charlie Villenueva.) Kobe and Nash would be arguably the best backcourt ever but with no interior scoring other than Kobe post ups and fast breaks, they'd go nowhere in the playoffs.
Chris Sheridan are saying the Lakers may make a play for Marion if he's truly available. But there is no way that happens because the only attractive piece is an oft-injured Lamar Odom and why would the Suns give their rival a piece they need.
Perhaps the Suns should simply try to lure as many members of the Western conference All Star team as possible and just become a team of mercs who go after championship rings and then rotate out or retire.
I'm not high on keeping the draft picks, because I know Coach D'Antoni would keep those players on the bench next season. A Jeff Hornacek could never flourish here now.
Correction, Free Agency period begins July 1st.
Hey, this sounds like a good free-agent pickup: How about Derek Anderson? He's a good midrange shooter when healthy, and he's known as a good character. He could probably be had for relatively little money.
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