Friday, September 07, 2007

Amare Stoudemire - Chris Bosh




Boshosaurus Rex and STAT, respectively.


I wrote this elsewhere (in a forum) in a discussion as to whether or not you would rather have Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh on your team. I found that this practically wrote itself, as there's so much to talk about on both subjects, so I imagine I will be writing a few of these on some hot topics. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves the merits of both in the comments, make inflammatory remarks about my writing, etc. Copy+Paste time!
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I'll try to lend an objective opinion on the various aspects of their game, and let you guys decide. Clearly a lot of people here do not watch an awful lot of Bosh, and clearly some of the people here do not watch an awful lot of Amare. Here's a comparative analysis on both of their games, on the main discussion points that are being thrown out there, many of which are misguided.

First, lets start with offense.

Back to the basket, Bosh has a bit of an edge depending on who the defender is. Bosh is listed at 230 but... I think he might be 230 when he's completely soaking wet and carrying some dumbbells (Which he doesn't seem to use). When Bosh plays against physically imposing players with a good idea of actual post defense (as opposed to people who are just shot blockers), he has an awful time. People like PJ Brown, Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby, and even someone like Reggie Evans who is no where near as tall as he ought to be to guard someone like Bosh, they all play him extremely well because he simply doesn't have the upper body strength to get any kind of position, and Bosh is much less effective if he's shooting 15-20 foot jumpers than if he's shooting 3-8 foot post shots. That said, against undisciplined defenders, people who are solely shot blockers, and people who aren't particularly physical, Bosh is hard to stop. He's very savvy in the post, is very good about giving ball fakes, and possesses very good footwork, to go along with a soft touch under the basket. Against undisciplined players like Steven Hunter, Darko Milicic, and pretty much anyone else who will jump at any opportunity for a block, Bosh dominates.

On the flip side, Amare actually seems to play better against the very players that Bosh struggles with, down in the post, as a lot of his post game is face up. (Much to the ire of the general populace here on the board. Nothing wrong with a face up game, fellas. High efficiency shots are high efficiency shots.) Amare's underutilized back-to-the-basket game is more refined than one would be led to believe by watching highlights... in fact, for people who don't watch a lot of Suns games, you probably wouldn't even know he *has* a back to the basket game. Truth be told, he has a sick fall away jumper and is very good about showing the ball but keeping it in check on ball fakes. The Phoenix offense doesn't really run with him playing back to the basket (the only player who gets posted up on the whole team is Boris Diaw, because he has trouble scoring any other way), but his face up game is nothing short of phenomenal and he may very well be the best face up big man in the league. (Zach Randolph and Kevin Garnett would be the other options, off the top of my head.) He gets high percentage looks, draws a lot of fouls, and can hit the 15-18 foot jumper with no trouble at all... and he's been working on a three point shot in the off season, which I can't say I'm thrilled about, but it's another dimension to his game. Moderation is all I have to say about that. I'd rather he not turn into Sheed. Amare is one of the best finishers, if not the best finisher, around the basket, in the league. The man can make any shot within four feet of the basket, and gets more and one plays off of shots that he has no business making than any other big man in the league, and you combine that with the fact that he has hands like a wide receiver (he was being scouted as a wide out in high school, but went with basketball), and catches basically anything that is thrown in his direction, you've got a rather strong chance of getting him a bucket or a foul any time you throw a pass in his general direction.

Where Bosh really separates himself from Amare is passing. To be blunt, Amare pretty much doesn't pass. He'll make the occasional flashy pass that could fool a few people into thinking that he is/ought to be a great passer... but he's not. Every time they run him as a passer in the high post, it ends up being a hand-off play to someone behind him. Bosh, however, has proven that he can pass out of the post very well,and has a good head for finding the open team mate. As his career progresses, I think that we ought to be seeing him put up 3.5-4.5 APG for a couple years, which is a hell of a number for a big man.

Aaaaand on defense. This is where a lot of the arguments have come in. The difference, however, isn't as large as one would be led to imagine. Chris Bosh is a more disciplined defender, you'll him leave his man on a bad rotation on occasion (not as much as Amare), and you'll see him give up less lay-ups from over aggression than Amare... but if you see him intimidate a slasher under the basket, you've caught a somewhat rare occasion, and should celebrate. Bosh is a weak side shot blocker, and simply does not have the strength under the hoop to even give the hard foul properly, when he needs to. It's a good thing he's playing PF in Toronto, because they desperately need another big man down there to stop the penetration from succeeding every time. On the flip side, you'll never mistake Amare for Alonzo, but when you do see Amare step up, it's a disheartening event. A good for-instance would be in the Laker series last year when Amare ripped the ball out of Lamar Odom's hands on an easy lay up attempt. Not only did he kill the shot, he killed Laker momentum and he proved that it you outright challenge him, you will have to pay the price.

As far as man to man low post defense go, both are borderline atrocious. Amare has gotten better than before, but it's still very bad... and Bosh simply isn't strong enough. The strength issue continually plagues Bosh and, I think, if he had another 15-20 pounds on him, he would probably be the undisputed better player out of himself, Amare and Dwight. He'd be strong enough to finish with contact under the hoop. He could actually establish position on the block. He could step up and intimidate on defense. He would not get hunched on any rebound attempt against a guy who boxes out properly.

One last tidbit: In every playoff series Amare has ever been in, excepting his rookie year, he was the most efficient, productive player in that entire round. And he was also the most productive player in the entire playoffs on both occasions. He's proven that he rises to the occasion when his team needs it.

In short, I'd pick Amare to build a team around. It would be easier to build a team around a player like Amare than a player like Bosh. That said, it would be much easier to plug Bosh into most teams than it would to plug Amare into most teams. Amare's ego could cause issues with a lot of players around the league. Hard to fault him though, as it's one of the things that makes him a special player as well.

13 Comments:

At 7:37 AM, Blogger Joshua said...

I wonder why in hell he's practicing his three-point shot when you, and probably others, observe that he's a bad low-post defender. And this makes the Kurt Thomas trade look even worse--he could have been kept around to teach defense to Amare. ...Although he had two years to do that, and evidently didn't.

 
At 5:43 PM, Blogger Joshua said...

And about Stoudemire's ego: it doesn't bother me, either, for two reasons. One is your reason--that it manifests as a drive to be a better player. The other is that, compared with the biggest ego in Suns history--Charles Barkley--Stoudemire lives a quiet life. The way I *don't* see him endlessly and crassly calling attention to himself, he's practically an anti-Barkley in terms of ego. Certainly, his ego is tempered by a superior work ethic.

 
At 12:05 PM, Blogger Zei_Zao_LS said...

Nearly every franchise player has it. Going down the list of NBA champions recently, the Spurs are the only ones that stick out as someone without a rather large ego, though to be honest, just because Duncan doesn't carry himself like he has a huge ego doesn't mean he doesn't. He has a steady supply of self-confidence and expects ridiculous standards out of himself... and to that degree, it has the same effect.

So yeah. I'll take a franchise player with a huge, enormous ego (Shaq) over someone who's confidence waxes and wanes. (Vince)

 
At 2:54 PM, Blogger Cameron said...

I guess it isn't much of a surprise that a Suns blog would pick Amare over Bosh - but I was impressed at how close a call you have it.

As a Raptors fan who catches Bosh in action 20-30 times a year, I can say that your assessment of him is very fair, but for two things;

- Bosh simply has a higher basketball IQ than Amare. This doesn't show in the stats all the time, but it does show in how Bosh makes himself a cog in the offense even when he doesn't have the rock in his hand.

- Bosh is genuinely his teams leader, and his team mates will bleed for him. I'm too distant from what Amare brings to the table for the Suns, but at best he'd be #3 in the alpha-dog food chain, and I seriously wonder whether his fellow team mates would follow him through a brick wall the way Bosh's would.

Top notch stuff though a terrific post topic and I love the blog.

 
At 5:08 PM, Blogger Blake DeArman/Zei_Zao_LS said...

I agree that Bosh is a better leader, and has a very high basketball IQ (as I noted when mentioning his passing. His high basketball IQ makes up a good bit of his game as he's really not the most spectacular physical specimen out there.)

I would like to note that Amare plays off the wall as good as anybody in the league, not just talking about bigs. If you watch him closely, he's always putting himself in a position to give his teammates and angle to pass to him. There's a reason Nash finds him so often, it's because he creates lanes when he's on the floor.

On the note of leadership, I agree there, though I would like to note that Amare has never been the team's leader because they have always had a strong veteran presence on the team at the same time as him. (Marbury, Nash)

I feel he will eventually be a good leader, one of the "Lead by example" types. He's got a bit of maturing to do before that actually comes to fruition though.

 
At 4:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"One last tidbit: In every playoff series Amare has ever been in, excepting his rookie year, he was the most efficient, productive player in that entire round."

I don't think so...... since Nash arrived to the Suns he has been the most productive player in the playoffs for the Suns, if you add all type of offense like: passing, points, FG percentage (specially FT and 3 PT shots, where he is way better than Amare), plus leadership, IQ, and heart. If you take out Nash in the playoffs, Amare FG percentage will fall. The year Amare didn't play Nash percentages stayed the same. Because of all that Nash has been more productive and efficient than Amare. And I'm not even going to mention the Dallas series back in 2005, and the fact that Nash has been the MVP or Co-MVP in every playoffs season the Suns played.

Other than that statement I mentioned, I agree with everything you said, and I too will choose Amare over Bosh.

 
At 9:43 PM, Blogger Zei_Zao_LS said...

Most productive statistically. And I'd also like to note that in every game that Nash misses, Amare actually puts up better stats.

Last year's playoff stats-
Amare Stoudemire (Whole Playoffs): 25.3 PPG, 12.1 RPG, 0.6 APG, 1.3 SPG, 1.9 BPG, 1.9 TOPG on 52.3 FG%, 33.3 3PT%, 76.9 FT%. 17.4 FGA per game.
Steve Nash (Whole Playoffs): 18.9 PPG, 3.2 RPG, 13.3 APG, 0.4 SPG, 0.1 BPG, 4.36 TOPG on 46.3 FG%, 48.7 3PT%, 89.1 FT%. 13.55 FGA per game.

Also, playoff efficiency ranking: Amare Stoudemire (#1, 28.9... 2nd place was 1.4 entire points behind him.), Steve Nash (#12, 23.2)

Since a lot of people don't like the Efficiency stat, Amare Stoudemire also led the playoffs in PER as well at 29.73 (ridiculously high number, by the by.)

Nash was the spiritual leader through the playoffs... but Amare was absolutely sickeningly good in the playoffs. Nobody in the league can put points on the board as efficiently as Amare, at least not at in that particular time frame.

 
At 2:59 PM, Blogger Joshua said...

Can I get in a word about the recent articles saying the Suns are working out big men? You have to feel sorry for any big man who joins the Suns, because as good as Kurt Thomas was, he was often just along for the ride, and none of the players mentioned--Vitaly Potapenko, Brian Skinner and initially Mike Sweetney--are even as good as he. It was stated that teams must have 13 players, and that is the only reason the Suns should bother getting a thirteenth man. He will just collect a paycheck. The articles said Pat Burke might be brought back, but why would he want to resign with a team whose success he wasn't allowed to be part of.

 
At 1:49 PM, Blogger Zei_Zao_LS said...

I actually wouldn't mind if the Suns were to work out Jared Jordan for that 13th roster spot. I really like his game, he's got great court vision, extremely good passer. I think with the help of Phil Weber, his shot could be quite deadly as well.

He's not currently signed by anyone, by my recollection, either.

 
At 5:36 PM, Blogger Joshua said...

And does he play defense?

Time for more Shawn Marion discussion. I was accused of jumping onto the trade-Marion bandwagon, but I don't want to trade him as much as I want to trade his salary. Does everybody realize that assuming a mid-range NBA salary is $5 million, Marion's salary could, if freed up, buy three players at his position (or any other position)? Even more if the real average salary is lower than my guess. And with a somewhat steady leak of news this summer about Marion disliking Amare Stoudemire and bitching about not being important enough, he's on the verge of becoming a real malcontent if he isn't already. Trade him, get several players (and at least one small forward) in return, build the depth and preserve the chemistry.

 
At 6:32 PM, Blogger Zei_Zao_LS said...

Jared Jordan is, sadly, rather unathletic. Defense will always be an issue for him, same as with Nash, as he's just not athletic enough to guard some of the guys in the league.

 
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